I had an interesting experience yesterday. It’s almost as if I entered an alternate universe.
I was surfing around the net, I can’t even remember what I was originally looking for, and in my searching I stumbled upon a blog called Daffodil lane. It is published by a married couple and, like me, they post personal kinds of items. They have a baby so they post baby pictures; Dianne, the wife is logging her weight watchers progress, things like that. They are also liberals, and, like me, they post articles that they find interesting as they come across them and then post thier commentary.
I read the latest post on this site (latest as of Sunday night). It was posted by Dianne and about John Kerry‘s speech at the DNC. She mentioned something to the effect of “I can’t wait until Kerry is in office and we get back to a country that is innovative and is not a theocracy.” (not an exact quote. I’m paraphrasing here). I read this thinking, “Amen, sister!” I noticed that there were some comments on this entry so I clicked the link to view the comments. One of them was from someone who asked why she thinks Bush hates science and why she thinks we are living in a Theocracy? Her husband (ManDrake) posted an answer that referred to an article and then there was another comment written by a conservative that was too vague to really comprehend clearly (It had something to do with the actions of past democrats).
I read these posts and thought it was strange that these two conservatives were, in a way, jumping down her throat. I mean, this site is, in a nutshell, someone’s homepage. They are liberals and are very passionate about what they believe in so they post liberal articles. I can relate to that. I found it extremely odd that these conservatives were, in my view, kind of harrassing her. I shut my computer off and went and watched the movie that my hubby had put on. However, I couldn’t pay attention to the movie because I was brewing on this. I started to get more and more angry. I began to come to the conclusion that these conservatives were bullies and were ganging up on this poor woman. I mean It started to make me mad so I got up, turned my computer back on, and Googled the site. I don’t know howI remembered the name of it, but it came right to me, and I was there in a flash.
I logged back on the site and posted a reply to the original argument about “why we are living in a theocracy.” I think I gave a solid answer. I defined the word from my dictionary and presented some examples in which I think backed up my argument (note: my print dictionary defines a theocracy as a head of government who claims to lead by direction of God) : 1. Bush admits he was called by God to invade Iraq, 2. Bush makes decisions based on his Christian idealogy, rather than what is good for all people of America. I.e.: cutting funding for embryonic stem cell research, pushing a constitutional amendment that bans gay marraige, passing a law that makes late term abortion illegal.
I came back later on in the day and, boy did I ever jump into a fishtank of killers. That site was swarming with neo-cons. I was kind of apalled! Why were all of these neo-conservatives trolling around on this couple’s site? The original conservative offered up a red herring. He focused on stem cell research and tried to bring in the whole “right to life” issue. I answered him back, telling him to stick to the point. However, the damage had already been done. That red herring attracted the barracudas. When I went back later on in the day they were swarming around that tasty stem cell research morsel. One person had the audacity to say “so by your logic, the killing of innocent lives is best for all Americans?” Huh?!? Where did that come from? Now we are talking about the killing of innocent lives? Again, I tried to get back to the point, (but not before pointing out the utter fallacy of bringing in the “killing of innocent lives” issue). Unfortunately, though, I nipped at the bait. I quoted a National Institute of Health faq that mentioned embryonic stem cells are preferable to Adult stem cells. That would make them see the light, right? I mean the government themselves even admit they would rather use embryonic stem cells for research. They should at least see that all kinds of stem cells should be studied. Surely they must understand that scientists should be free to conduct research without being hindered by the government?!?
Boy was that a huge mistake. When I went back things began to get worse. There were more of ’em swarming around that damn stem cell morsel. We had completely entered the world of ideology, where nothing can be argued. One of those pesky barracudas tried to get me by dismissing my NIH quote and giving me, instead, an article from a website in which I could find “lots of good articles about how there are limitations to using embroynic stem cells”. I checked out this site and, being a good librarian, tried to figure out who the publishers of the site were. “Was this good information?” I asked myself. I couldn’t find out. I couldn’t even find an “about us” link anywhere on the page. I concluded (by the url) that this was a “right to life” website putting out material that supports thier agenda. Nope, not good information. It was clear that these people were in desperate need of basic crtical thinking skills (i.e. how to formulate an argument), AND information literacy skills (How to determine what is good and bad information on the web).
This brings me to my observations: I think it is almost next to impossible to have a civil, real argument with one of these neo conservatives. They are so completely blinded by thier idealogy. They hold thier beliefs to be fact, like that “killing innocent lives” guy. He actually believes that innocent lives are being killed when one studies embryonic stem cells. Any person who is not steeped in this mentality knows this to be false. I mean, I’m so used to being around people who think this is false that I was kind of taken aback by the statement. The fact is that innocent lives are not killed by studying embryonic stem cells. It has never been proven scientifically that embryonic stem cells are “innocent life”. Like believing Jesus rose from the dead; it can never be proven because it is a belief.
Secondly, it is fruitless to argue with these people because thier intentions are not pure. In other words, it appeared to me that sole purpose of these people, like barracudas, was to kill. They don’t care what you have to say. The don’t even bother listening to what you have to say. They take a statement you make, twist it so far out of context and change the subject. They are devious. One guy even lied to make a point, which I find abhorrent. They have been directed (unconciously?) to go out into the world and get on liberals’ nerves. Wear a t-shirt that bugs a liberal. Go call in liberal talk-radio shows and raise some hell. Seek out liberal blogs and start a fight. And don’t stop until you have beaten them down with fallacious arguments, lies, and false analagies. I hate to say this but Maybe Ann Coulter is right: “Political discourse in this country has become insufferable.” Pretty ironic that the queen purveyor of insufferable political discourse is the one who made this statement isn’t it? (but that’s a whole other blog post)
I’m not sure what to make of this experience. And I am still bothered by all of these barracudas hovering around this liberal couple’s site. It was weird. I wonder if other liberal bloggers are experiencing the same thing?
Blatherskite 
21 responses to “Like a tank of barracudas”
Hi Monica,
Not to worry, I’m not here to “kill” anyone. I’ve been posting on Daffodil Lane for a while now and I go out of my way to avoid inflammatory rhetoric or ad hominem attacks. If ManDrake or Diane had a problem with anything that was said, they’d have banned us by now. Also, if they didn’t welcome opinions, they would not provide a mechanism for others to give theirs. Check out some of the older conversations before judging.
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Hi Monica,
Not to worry, I’m not here to “kill” anyone. I’ve been posting on Daffodil Lane for a while now and I go out of my way to avoid inflammatory rhetoric or ad hominem attacks. If ManDrake or Diane had a problem with anything that was said, they’d have banned us by now. Also, if they didn’t welcome opinions, they would not provide a mechanism for others to give theirs. Check out some of the older conversations before judging.
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You’re right, I do believe that extracting embryonic stem cells kills a human life. If you go by pure science, which seems to be your benchmark, this position can neither be proven nor disproven with current scientific method. If that’s the case, and it could go either way, why take the chance?
Having said that, of course I don’t believe that the act of studying the cells itself kills the life, it’s already dead by that point. Why do I bring this up? Because I support the President’s position that the embryonic stem cell lines that currently exist should be used, but that no more should be extracted.
If you’re going to attack me and my position, please characterize me properly.
As for commenting on liberal blogs:
1) I heard about Daffodil Lane from a friend who works with someone who actually knows the blog owners. I was not given a mandate to “go out into the world and get on liberals’ nerves.” I post what I feel is the truth, as, I assume, do you.
2) I have not been disinvited by the blog owners. This is a good thing, because even though I disagree with their ideologies (and that IS what we debate), they seem like people who genuinely care, especially when speaking of their daughter.
3) Ultimately, I enjoy visiting and discussing differences of opinion.
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You’re right, I do believe that extracting embryonic stem cells kills a human life. If you go by pure science, which seems to be your benchmark, this position can neither be proven nor disproven with current scientific method. If that’s the case, and it could go either way, why take the chance?
Having said that, of course I don’t believe that the act of studying the cells itself kills the life, it’s already dead by that point. Why do I bring this up? Because I support the President’s position that the embryonic stem cell lines that currently exist should be used, but that no more should be extracted.
If you’re going to attack me and my position, please characterize me properly.
As for commenting on liberal blogs:
1) I heard about Daffodil Lane from a friend who works with someone who actually knows the blog owners. I was not given a mandate to “go out into the world and get on liberals’ nerves.” I post what I feel is the truth, as, I assume, do you.
2) I have not been disinvited by the blog owners. This is a good thing, because even though I disagree with their ideologies (and that IS what we debate), they seem like people who genuinely care, especially when speaking of their daughter.
3) Ultimately, I enjoy visiting and discussing differences of opinion.
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Hi Monica,
I’ve been posting to Daffodil Lane for a while now and neither I nor my fellow “barracudas” have mangaged to get banned yet so I’m not sure why you think we’re bullying them. Did you miss the humorous exchange about the ants? If ManDrake and Diane did not want opinions, I’m sure they would remove the mechanism to create posts. I’ll concede that there were logical fallacies, but I see that in this post you aren’t above ad hominem attacks either. I hope I wasn’t being too arrogant.
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Hi Monica,
I’ve been posting to Daffodil Lane for a while now and neither I nor my fellow “barracudas” have mangaged to get banned yet so I’m not sure why you think we’re bullying them. Did you miss the humorous exchange about the ants? If ManDrake and Diane did not want opinions, I’m sure they would remove the mechanism to create posts. I’ll concede that there were logical fallacies, but I see that in this post you aren’t above ad hominem attacks either. I hope I wasn’t being too arrogant.
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InsaneIdiot, I beg to differ with you. I found your comments to me on the “bush bumpersticker” post to be rather inflamitory and insulting. Insinuating that I forgot about 9/11? Lying about the 9/11 commission report to make a point? I was insulted. As for this post being an ad-hominem attack, I am merely using an analagy to make a point. I call it as I see it. Your right, I don’t know the history of Daffodil Lane, and they seem like very good people. And I am not judging anybody. I’m sure that the conversations you have had have been very funny and fruitfull. However, this was the experience that I had yesterday. I felt like I was thrown in a tank (albeit, I threw myself into it). This experience moved me to write the post above.
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Tom M, please don’t take this post as a personal attack on you. I am just writing about my observation. This is something that has been brewing inside me and for awhile and the experience yesterday kind of brought it bubbling to the surface. I am happy to have a discussion with you but I really refuse to discuss idealogy. I find it totally friutless. I do respect your opinion, though. I apologize for using the term: neo-conservatives, but I don’t really know what else to call people of your political persuation. Unfortunately, we lump people into groups. I am a liberal, and somehow that word has become derrogatory. I have heard conservatives (not knowing I am actually a liberal) throw that word out there like liberal is synonomous with evil. I sincerely apolgize if you find my using it insulting.
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for the response – it must have been some experience jumping in like that on Daffodil Lane. I respect your opinion, too – we just disagree. I don’t think being liberal is evil; then I’d have to think that about my own sister! Conservatives aren’t evil either (by neo-conservative, do you mean extreme?).
Its just that I believe that being conservative or being liberal is actually following that ideology. We debate our ideologies – maybe you don’t want to debate faith issues, which is fine (and I admit, it’s tough to do, as faith defined is ‘belief without proof’). Certain topics are definitely hot buttons, and not just on these blogs, but everywhere.
No matter if you’re conservative, liberal, Democrat or Republican, we’re all passionate about our beliefs, it seems. And there are really good people in all of those categories.
Thanks again – I look forward to more great political (and otherwise) discussions. See you on the Internet…
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Jamison calls them neo-cons all the time. Nothing they haven’t heard before.
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Tom: Fair enough..your right, we do, essentially, discuss idealogies. Your right, conservatives are not evil in general. There are many conservatives that I respect. However, I really feel that the some conservatives use evil tactics. Like the Rebub party posting that commercial on thier website that compares Kerry and other democrats with Hitler. Or bumperstickers that compare Kerry with Bin Laden. Or Limbaugh maliciously using Barack Osama instead of Obama. Etc. I’m glad to learn that not all of you think that way. In fact, I’m ecstatic. Maybe there is hope!
Incidentally, I first heard the term “neo-cons” when Mandrake used it on my site and I heard it again on the Majority Report yesterday. I like it because it distinguishes the extreme conservatives with the not so extreme conservatives. I think there is a big difference.
Diane, thanks for visiting! I love your site and will be back often. And keep fighting the good fight 😉
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Monica,
I have been reader of Daffodil Lane’s blog for some time now (I personally do not feel that I can eloquently express or defend my opinions) and I agree with Tom M. that although I disagree with Dianne’s, Jamison’s, and your opinions I do respect them.
I do just want to point out one thing though. In your last comment to Tom M., you state that you believe that Republicans/conservatives use evil tactics by comparing Kerry to Hitler and/or Osama. I agree with you that that is riduculous and petty,but please don’t forget that MoveOn.org has also come up with ad campaigns comparing Bush to Hitler not to mention celebrities vocalizing it as well. I just think we all need to realize that there are people out there (on both sides of the political spectrum) who are so emotionally blinded by their opinions/beliefs that they resort to insane and ludicrous statements.
That said, I look forward to reading more comments from everyone. I have to admit I am now really addicted to various blogs that my husband is starting to worry about me 🙂
Marta
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Monica,
I have been reader of Daffodil Lane’s blog for some time now (I personally do not feel that I can eloquently express or defend my opinions) and I agree with Tom M. that although I disagree with Dianne’s, Jamison’s, and your opinions I do respect them.
I do just want to point out one thing though. In your last comment to Tom M., you state that you believe that Republicans/conservatives use evil tactics by comparing Kerry to Hitler and/or Osama. I agree with you that that is riduculous and petty,but please don’t forget that MoveOn.org has also come up with ad campaigns comparing Bush to Hitler not to mention celebrities vocalizing it as well. I just think we all need to realize that there are people out there (on both sides of the political spectrum) who are so emotionally blinded by their opinions/beliefs that they resort to insane and ludicrous statements.
That said, I look forward to reading more comments from everyone. I have to admit I am now really addicted to various blogs that my husband is starting to worry about me 🙂
Marta
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Hi Marta,
Thanks for visiting my site. I am surprised to hear that Moveon.org has done this. I am not aware of any ad in which they compare Bush to Hitler. If it is in fact true than I have lost a lot of respect for them. But they have always seemed to stick close to issues from what I have seen. I actually just e-mailed them right now to find out if it is true. I will post if I get an answer.
Regardless, it is one thing for a fringe group or person (the moveon.orgs or the Limbaughs) to do something like this but for the actual Republican party? I think all Americans should be just totally outraged by it and I am surprised that not more people are! After reading Tom’s post and your post I can see that you are both smart, and I am relieved to come to the realization that you are conservatives who really care about what is good and right. And I’m sure there are lots of conservatives like you out there. So why on earth do you support a party that would do something so malicious? I just don’t understand.
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Hi Marta,
Thanks for visiting my site. I am surprised to hear that Moveon.org has done this. I am not aware of any ad in which they compare Bush to Hitler. If it is in fact true than I have lost a lot of respect for them. But they have always seemed to stick close to issues from what I have seen. I actually just e-mailed them right now to find out if it is true. I will post if I get an answer.
Regardless, it is one thing for a fringe group or person (the moveon.orgs or the Limbaughs) to do something like this but for the actual Republican party? I think all Americans should be just totally outraged by it and I am surprised that not more people are! After reading Tom’s post and your post I can see that you are both smart, and I am relieved to come to the realization that you are conservatives who really care about what is good and right. And I’m sure there are lots of conservatives like you out there. So why on earth do you support a party that would do something so malicious? I just don’t understand.
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Why we do what we do?
I don’t have an easy answer to this question. Monica points out on her blog that we are beset by the ruthless conservatives. For us this has been the state of affairs for most of our lives. Both of us…
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They do (or did I haven’t ben to Moveon.org in a while to see if it’s still there) have an ad that comapres Bush to Hitler. A lot of people felt that they had no right to complain about the Kerry ad with their own comparison using Bush.
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Dianne, I am bummed to hear about this, as I’ve had a lot of respect for Moveon.org. I found this blog posting on daillykos.com that talks about the whole thing. Again, I would really like to hear what moveon.org has to say about this, though.
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Hi Monica,
I think you should reread my comments on the “bush bumpersticker” post. I never said you forgot about 9/11. What I said was if you had forgotten that 9/11 occurred before the liberation of Iraq. This was a rebuttal of the point you made regarding terrorists hating us even more.
As for the 9/11 commission statement, I could be wrong but here are a few quotes I found interesting.
On page 66, “In March 1998, after Bin Ladin’s public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraq intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps both of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladin’s Egyptian deputy, Zawahiri, who had ties of his own to the Iraqis.”
On page 128, “On November 4, 1998, the US Attorney for the Southern District of New York unsealed its indictment of Bin Ladin, charging him with conspiracy to attack U.S. defense installations. The indictment also charged that al Qaeda had allied itself with Sudan, Iran, and Hezbollah. The original sealed indictment had added that al Qaeda had “reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.” This passage led (Richard) Clarke, who for years had read intelligence reports on Iraqi-Sudanese cooperation on chemical weapons, to speculate to Berger that a large Iraqi presence at chemical facilities in Khartoum was “probably a direct result of the Iraq-Al Qaida agreement” Clarke added that VX precursor traces found near al Shifa were the “exact formula used by Iraq”.
Anyway, I hope that I was able to convince you that I wasn’t trying to be insulting or inflammatory.
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Hi insane Idiot: I apologize for my insinuating that you lied and were being inflamitory. I guess I just reacted (to your arrogance. I’m kidding! 😉 ). As for your quotes, if you read a little further into the report you will see that those indictments amount to an alledged allegation that didn’t pan out. On page 334 there is a whole paragraph that describes the Iraq-Al Quaeda connection as tenuous. REad the section under “Phase two and the question of Iraq.”
Actually you don’t even have to read much further into the report to see that the comission has come to this conclusion. You only had to read the next paragraph on page 66: “But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operatonal relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in devloping or carrying out any attacks against the United States.” – (p.66, para. 4).
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comparisons of bush to hitler, i don’t know. he has only killed 15,000 or so innocent iraqi lives whereas Hitler killed over 6 million Jewish people and 5 million Catholics, Muslims and other Christian groups. Bush’s policies, however, are indeed very hitler like. If you know anything about the Patriot Act and the civil liberties it takes away from you, then you would also know about the Enabling Act that Hitler passed that eliminated every civil liberty the German constitution granted under German democracy. Remember, Hitler was democratically elected, but he used fear and terror to eliminate his opposition in the German Reichstag, the very symbol of German democracy that was destroyed, blamed on the communists and used to incite fear in the German people until they begged to be protected at the expense of the very civil liberties and freedoms that were supposed to be protected under their constitution….all in the name of stopping the terrorists from taking over the country. Is any of this starting to sound familiar??? You could easily replace all of the above stuff about Hitler and the German Reichstag with Bush, 9/11, WTC and the Patroit Act. The German people didn’t know what they were doing when they thought they needed the protection, because the goverment told them not to worry. When governments start to say that….you should be worried.
read
http://www.furnitureforthepeople.com/actpat.htm
heil bush jr!
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